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Iron Flame Theory: There is something off with the Sorrengail family dynamic

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Written by: Cory

The three siblings: Brennan, Mira and Violet as children

I’m not going to lie to you, this is less of a theory and more of a discussion. I mean my theory is simple: there is something seriously off with the Sorrengail family dynamic. And I know there’s clues in both books but I honestly cannot quite put my finger on it.

My questions are: are Brennan, Mira and Violet all related? Was Lilith Sorrengail Violet’s mother? Did she have an affair with someone at some point? What are we missing here?

What do we know so far

Let’s start with Fourth Wing.

It’s not the first time I’ve heard her curse the sickness that nearly killed her while she was pregnant with me or the library Dad made my second home once she’d been stationed here at Basgiath as an instructor and he as a scribe.

I’m going to say something wild. I’m feeling something really odd about this phrase here. I don’t know how to explain. In Iron Flame Lilith tells Violet that she might be a stranger to her…

At twenty-six years old, Mira’s a younger version of our mother.

Like, are we noticing things already? Mira looks like Lilith. She is Lilith’s daughter. Brennan looks like dad. But what about Violet? Who does she look like?

“Spoken like the daughter of a scribe”
“I am the daughter of a scribe.”
“You’re the daughter of a rider”
I will not watch one of my children enter the Scribe Quadrant, Violet.

Ok, it does feel like Lilith is addressing Violet has her child. Also she is telling her flat out that she is not the daughter of a scribe.

“Because scribes are so far beneath riders?”
“Yes!”

She doesn’t think less of them because the love of her life was a scribe. So could it be that she thinks scribes are far beneath riders because of Markham? Because they keep secrets? Like, they are just worse?

“Dad wouldn’t want this!” Mira argues.
“I loved your father, but he’s dead”

So wild theory here, but what if Mira’s dad is indeed dead. But there’s a different story when it comes to Brennan and Violet?

Mom tolerates me and respects Mira, but she loved Brennan.

Did she love Brennan because the scribe, the love of her life was Brennan’s dad? His only kid? She respected Mira because she was her child but with a man, she did not love? What about Violet? She only tolerated Violet but why? Was she adopted and raised as a weapon? Foretold by dragons somehow what she will become?

Am I going crazy?

“He did, but it was after my mom had a really long night while we were stationed near the eastern border, and her eyes were bloodshot red, so I freaked out and started shrieking.“

I still have many questions about this statement here in Fourth Wing.

“But what if I want to be a rider?” [..] “Like Brennan and Mom?”
“You’re not like them, Violet. That’s not your path.” […]“And it’s for the best. Your mother has never understood that while riders may be the weapons of our kingdom, it’s the scribes who have all the real power in this world.”

I still need to understand why dad told her that being a rider is not her path. This still confuses me a little. Were they trying to keep her safe? But Lilith did say in Iron Flame that she knows her daughter. That she would have eventually learnt about venin when made Major or Colonel and Markham would have brought her into the fold. And then, they would have killed her. So she put her in the Riders Quadrant.

“She spent almost an entire year ignoring me when Dad died.” […]“Which was almost as wholesome as the years she spent barely tolerating my existence because I wasn’t perfect like Brennan or a warrior like Mira.”

Again, it’s really confusing. Lilith would have done anything and everything to protect her kids. Why ignore Violet when dad died? It makes no sense. Why did she barely tolerate her?

“I know you’ll make the right choice when the time comes. You have always been the best of both your mother and me.“

People keep on telling her that. Sgaeyl said that to her too. What does everyone know that Violet will make the right choice?

Alright, now we learn quite a lot in Iron Flame.

“Brennan says, rubbing the bridge of his nose. Our father’s nose. Their resemblance is uncanny.”

All right, it’s a confirmed fact that Mr. Sorrengail, the individual who served as the scribe and imparted his wisdom to Violet, the man she believes to be her father, was unquestionably Brennan’s father.

“Brennan may as well be a stranger.”

I know it’s contextual, but it’s just so rare that Rebecca Yarros says things like this for no reason. And then again, we’re bringing the ideas of strangers into play. This is what Lilith tells Violet:

“I might be a stranger to you, Violet, but you are far from a stranger to me.[…] already lost one child keeping our borders safe, and I wasn’t willing to lose another.”

Excuse me, and I know again, it can be contextual, but what mom tells her daughter that she is a stranger? I know what Lilith meant. But did Lilith mean that? Did she really? Because again, and I have to stress this, Rebecca Yarros is very good at picking the absolute best words to bamboozle us.

“Because you think less of the scribes,” I answer.
“Bullshit. The love of my life was a scribe.”

Again, all things points to the idea that Mr Sorrengail was the scribe Violet believes to be dad. Brennan’s dad. Seemingly, Violet’s dad.

“Stay alive, or this all will have been for nothing.”

What does Lilith mean, all will have been for nothing? Erm, excuse me, what? Did Lilith and [someone] plan for Violet to survive and become a rider? Is there a prophecy involved? Was the future foretold?

“Your father made sure you’d know everything you needed or where to find it. You’re all that’s left of him, you know.”
But I’m not. Mira has his laugh, his warmth, and Brennan…

So confusing. This right here is so confusing. Mira’s is Lilith’s daughter but honestly I think she has a different dad. (who’s dead!) But are Violet and Brennan related?

“Poisons,” […]“Never had the aptitude for them like you and Brennan. Or maybe it’s just that I could never sit still long enough to listen to Dad’s lessons.

Hmm, feels like Mira was feeling disconnected? She was certainly…different, right?

“There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to keep you safe. Do you understand? Everything was to get you to this moment, when you’d be strong enough-“

Jeez, mama Sorrengail strikes again. Strong enough for what? It really does feel like she was part of a foretold future. And it feels like Violet was the centre of it all. Wait, was Aimsir somehow the oldest of the oranges? Could it be that he was the elder of the den? Do all elders know what Andarna knows (that she was left behind…) about the future? Darn it, I have more questions than answers here.

“You’re everything we dreamed you would be,” […] “All three of you.” She looks down at Brennan. “And I’ll get to see him soon.”

Ok, alright. She addresses Violet. Then she refers to all children (I assume), then why does she look at Brennan when she says that she will get to see him soon? See who? Dad Sorrengail? Someone else? What does Brennan know that we don’t? (a lot, I know…)

Most generals dream of dying in service to their kingdom. But you know me better than that, my love.
When I fall, it will be for one reason only: to protect our children.

Can we take a moment to appreciate that Rebecca Yarros is purposely avoiding using Mr Sorrengail’s name? There is just so much mystery and I have this feeling that we honestly have all the clues but we just can’t figure out who he is, and what was the real relationship with Lilith and the kids.

I’m not going to lie, I’m left feeling really confused about it all. I feel like there is something seriously off. Like there are not fully related. But it also doesn’t make sense, because the scribe was, by all means, Lilith’s love. So she wouldn’t go cheating on him to make Mira. Unless there are some serious issues we will uncover in Book 3. That maybe Mira is a worrior because she was born out of war between Lilith and a strange man who is now…well, dead! And Violet? Who is Violet? Is she related to Brennan? Do they share the same parents?

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Posted by:

Cory

Hello! I’m Cory, a devoted superfan of the Fourth Wing, Iron Flame and the Empyrean Series. My passion for these epic tales has led me to read and reread the books, each time uncovering new layers of information. I’ve created this site to share my insights and discoveries with fellow fans and anyone interested in exploring the rich world of Empyrean.

18 responses to “Iron Flame Theory: There is something off with the Sorrengail family dynamic”

  1. Diana Avatar
    Diana

    Hi Cory,

    Do you remember that I told you once that Tairn could have chosen Violet before Treshing? Just like Andarna did.

    Andarna said in that chapter of Iron Flame:
    “I waited 650 to hatch. Waited until your 18 summer, when I heard our elders talk of the weakling daughter of their general, the girl forecasted to become the head of the scribes, and I knew. You would have the mind of a scribe and the heart of a rider. You would be mine.”

    What if “everything was to get you to this moment, when you’d be strong enough”—she was referring to a plan along with dragonkind?

    General Sorrengail is the closest to the Vale. What if she asked to be assigned to Basgiath getting access to: the archives for her husband to do research of venin and Aimsir to the elders?

    I am not sure what kind of rank Lilith could have had twenty years ago—maybe captain, like Mira. Her signet is not common or rare, like shadow, lightning, or distance wielding, but she was powerful, maybe for experience or nature.

    ———

    Maybe everything was normal; she was patrolling, and he was in the library of an outpost outside the wards; they were married with two kids; one was on the way, but they didn’t know yet. And then the “fever” happened.

    The leadership knew that now Lilith knew about the cruel reality outside, and they didn’t kill her because the healers told everyone that what saved her life was a baby in her belly.

    Since that moment, Lilith and Dad Sorrengail started a family of two healthy children and one with silver hair. Then all the family declared that they only had one goal: to keep Violet healthy.

    Dad gave her all his knowledge and started doing peculiar research about hatchlings and the 2nd Krovlan uprising.
    Lilith got power in the army for the family.
    Brennan was always taking care of Violet.
    —–
    Like, let’s get in tune with why Brennan could have a mending signet? He’s the big brother, and he wants to cure Violet all the time. What could they do if Nolon or another mender wasn’t near? Signets get born of necessities and what’s in the core of the rider. He didn’t want power; he wanted to cure.
    —–
    And Mira. Mira has been programmed with the same chip as Brennan since chapter one, thinking her mother got crazy by sending Violet to the death bridge and the factory of death. She even got her leathers and boots, designed an armor with dragon scales that she recollected a whole season, and left an outpost knowing that leadership could punish or kill her. Her signet is wards, she wanted to protect. Who? Her family, of course.

    And this is something that usually happens in families with a special child. Wanting to protect and heal the impossible in seconds, wanting to have the power to give them the best life, and wanting to also give them all the tools and mind to have a good future. And sometimes, after giving the most attention to the special child, it’s also possible that the other siblings create a feeling of jealousy or anger toward the parents. It’s normal; it’s valid; it’s okay.

    Violet is not the only one wanting to be perfect—wanting to have the approval of her parents. She looked up and wanted to be as perfect as her siblings, and Violet already said that she wanted to have a signet to bring good to the world, not violence; she wanted to be like her siblings and heal and protect. To give back what she had received.

    Fourth Wing is a book that has Aaron Yarros in the dedication, I think he’s the older son of Rebecca Yarros, who has been a military wife for 20 years and even has a blog dedicated to other military wives. Four of her sons have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, just like her.

    I feel like this book is very personal; I don’t know if she has other characters with that syndrome in her other books. I found this article of Health with an interview she did:

    Yarros: Xaden believes it’s Violet’s intelligence and tenacity that are her greatest assets, both of which are developed because Violet can’t depend on her physical body. In their brutal environment, it was exceptionally important that Violet’s love interest treats her as capable and encourages her to become her best self instead of infantilizing or holding her back.

    “Intelligence and tenacity […] are developed because Violet can’t depend on her physical body.” I feel that’s the reason why Dad Sorrengail mentored her and tried to guide her to the path of scribes.

    Rebecca also adopted a girl who is nonverbal and on the autism spectrum. Kinda reminds me of Andarna, Tairn adopted her in a dragon way with Sgaeyl, having Violet and Xaden in the bag.

    Violet was taken care of by her siblings, and that inspired her to help others, like Rhi, Sawyer, Ridoc and Andarna. If she has the power, she’s going to do it.

    __________________________

    I don’t feel this is a book with cheating issues. I choose to believe with my heart that this is a book about Family Sorrengail who fought for more than 20 years to be a family and also to get Violet ready. For what? A good future, but they also knew that Violet was the only one who could make her own future good.

    [Dain never understood that, because he wasn’t a Sorrengail. Xaden started to know her after she was more advanced in her personal journey.]

    I feel there are three emotional journeys in this book:
    —Personal journey of Violet; accepting that her body is different and that she needs to ask for accommodations. Example: Gauntlet, Tairn almost bowing, saddle, extra bandages, the running landing at the final?
    —Adoption journey of Andarna, a different breed; Tairn and Violet struggling with things like the fact that she’ll never be able to carry a dragon or the unusually long time of her Dreamless Sleep.
    —Family Sorrengail; the journey of a family with a special daughter.

    ————————–

    My point. I also feel that Violet was seen as a good opportunity to be a lightning wielder, the karma of the venin, just like the brother in the Fables of the Barrens. After years of research and ascending in rank, her parents knew the probabilities, and Aimsir was also part of all that.

    Maybe after Brennan’s death, Aimsir talked with the elders about those probabilities. Lilith was already the commanding general of Basgiath. Andarna listened to one of those conversations.

    Maybe Dad Sorrengail ended up being killed by a mavin, Markham and Aetos are on my mind after finding the antidote of the serum or another thing.

    So elders started to really consider the idea. But which dragon could be strong enough to give that power to a weak human? Tairn was the obvious match: unbounded, enormous, black, smart, with 100 years of experience in the field, and with a pro-revolution mate.

    We don’t know if Codagh was really supportive or against the Tyrrish rebellion. He maybe just didn’t want to kill 107 kids.

    Some dragons support the revolution, some don’t. Codagh went against the idea of risking the life of all his den at that moment—lit, because Tairn was going to die with his next rider, and he knew it. Choosing Violet was risky, and that could be the reason why he approached in Treshing to discuss it with him.

    Maybe Tairn chose Violet as his last rider long before, taking account of the lightning-wielding possibility and getting ready for the Venin War with Sgaeyl. Both knew who she was; Brennan possibly talked about her with Naolin and both listened to the fact that little Sorrengail was brilliant and tenacious—Brennan’s anecdote of the squash in IF Chapter 39.

    Sgaeyl saw her after parapet with approval. Of being the last rider of her mate, a potential lover of Xaden due to the attraction in the turret and the fact that she changed a boot with Rhi, or both?

    Every time Xaden saw her, Sgaeyl was there and could share images through the bond. Maybe to end convincing Tairn or show him things like the Gauntlet? Andarna could have been a final test [How was she going to carry Violet to the flying field after choosing her? Maybe she talked with Tairn before]; maybe Tairn was waiting for the night to not attract attention or make a good final.

    “We’re going to put on a show.”
    “We are the seventy-first bond to enter the field.” Like he was counting or something.
    “You’re the smartest of your year.” Like he was watching her before Treshing.
    “Strength of courage is more important than physical strength.”

    —————-

    Explaining the ‘karma of the venin’.

    I theorize that Violet is immune to venin-draining attacks—like when Jack took Dain’s arms and left them gray. This theory is only sustained if Lilith’s fever mentioned in FW Chapter 1 was a venin-draining attack.

    IF Chapter 41:
    “Would be a shame to waste the gaming arena, since it took me years to construct. It’s quite special. All the stone quarried from Braevick, from east of the Dunness River.” (Tecarus)

    IF Chapter 42:
    “If quarried the stones from east of the Dunness River, the land that borders the Barrens. It had already been drained of its magic.” (Violet)

    Tecnically, in those seats were alive people, and the venin couldn’t reach them because there was something drained in the way.

    Why a lightning wielder is important?

    Introductory quote of FW Chapter 37:

    “But it was the third brother, who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price.” —”The Origin,” The Fables of the Barren.

    ________________________

    Straetker, R. (2023, 9 agosto). Q&A: Rebecca Yarros on Chronic illness representation in Fourth Wing. Health. https://www.health.com/rebecca-yarros-fourth-wing-interview-7569752

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      Hi Diana, was really hoping to hear from you on this one.

      What if “everything was to get you to this moment, when you’d be strong enough”—she was referring to a plan along with dragonkind?
      >> That’s what I mean. It almost feels as if everyone knew about her future…

      General Sorrengail is the closest to the Vale. What if she asked to be assigned to Basgiath getting access to: the archives for her husband to do research of venin and Aimsir to the elders?
      >> “He was ecstatic when my mother was assigned here because it meant that he’d have the full resources of the Archives.”

      Then all the family declared that they only had one goal: to keep Violet healthy.
      >> Maybe. Maybe. Something still doesn’t add up tho.
      —–
      Like, let’s get in tune with why Brennan could have a mending signet
      >> I mean it could be that ultimately he wanted to mend Violet and Mira is a protector (also for Violet).
      —–

      Violet is not the only one wanting to be perfec.
      >> As with real life this feels very toxic fam environment. Everyone looks after the “weak” one and the weak one sees everyone being strong around her and strives to be like them. Ufff…

      I feel like this book is very personal
      >> I agree with you. It felt personal from the beginning. From the moment she revealed that Violet has EDS. In one of the interview she even said something interesting.
      Question: Immediately afte the death of General Sorrengail, we see three different immediate reactions from her three estranged children: Brennan, Mira and Violet. How did you decide how each of them would react to her choice to sacrifice herself by using Sloane to siphon her power into the wardstone?

      Rebecca Yarros: Oh, gosh, I’m just cautious when my mother reads this. I love complicated family dynamics. And I think when you have a complicated family dynamic like they do with their mother, there’s nothing more tragic than losing that person before you get the answers you want and the anger that comes from not getting the answers that you want that they’re not capable of. Brennan is so mad at her and so angry, but in that moment, it’s still his mom that died. And there’s still an element of, no matter how much you might be angry with the parent for a choice they’ve made, it’s still your mom. Mira has always been closer to her mother, she has always modeled her mother, she has been very much a mirror of her mother. And naturally, she’s mad they didn’t bring her in on the decision, they didn’t do anything like that. And Violet is, as usual, caught up in everyone else’s decisions in that moment, but knowing what has to be done.

      Rebecca also adopted a girl who is nonverbal and on the autism spectrum. Kinda reminds me of Andarna, Tairn adopted her in a dragon way with Sgaeyl, having Violet and Xaden in the bag.
      >> I think that’s the sweetest thing. Because despite Andarna’s difficulties she is, in a way, the strongest of the all!

      __________________________

      I don’t feel this is a book with cheating issues.
      >> I don’t either. Which is why, I’m trying to fully understand the dynamics. Are they fully Sorrengails? Was one of them adopted?

      ————————–
      >> To your points about Aimsir, I do wonder if we will learn more about him in the coming books. He does feel…important.
      I do think dad Sorrengail was killed by Markham, little by little. The poisons, the heart issues. Signature poisons.

      >> re Codagh. I don’t fully understand him either. There is no outsmarting a black dragon. And yet, Andarna mananged to outsmart Tairn. Even Colonel Mairi with her rune managed to outsmart Codagh (well, Melgren mainly) but still. I am uncertain if Codagh is a good guy or not. He doesn’t feel…right. But then in Iron Flame we do learn that he cares about dragonkind first and foremost! And it does feel like he didn’t trust Melgren to tell him that there is a 7th breed.

      He maybe just didn’t want to kill 107 kids.
      >> I honestly thing it was worded that we understood it as such. They were to be executed, but General Sorrengail stroke a deal with Xaden.

      Maybe Tairn chose Violet as his last rider long before.
      >> I am a purist when it comes to love in books. And I know real life is different. But I somehow want Andarna to have waited for Violet and Tairn to have changed her mind once he saw her protecting Andarna. I don’t know why but Tairn chosing Violet BEFORE Thresing, doesn’t make me happy. Not saying you are wrong btw, just expressing my feelings here 🙂

      Sgaeyl saw her after parapet with approval
      >> I do think Sgaeyl has many many secrets too. And we will find them very soon.

      “We are the seventy-first bond to enter the field.” Like he was counting or something.
      >> That’s a very good point, Diana. He was counting. But why?

      —————-

      I theorize that Violet is immune to venin-draining attacks—like when Jack took Dain’s arms and left them gray.
      >> With this logic, could we assume that Dain is somehow immune too now? Or not really because he is not weak now. But yes, if Violet was somehow fully drained (I mean she is the weakling daughter…) and almost killed, then I sustain your theory, that Violet is indeed immune to further draining. Much like the stone from Braevick.

      Why a lightning wielder is important?
      >> HA! I’m working on a theory about this. YESSSSSS, so I have that quote on the list. I also have the conversation with the venin on the back of Tairn in FW and furthermore, conversations with Tecarus…and I also when she is fighting the venin in the arena, the venin recognised her as the one who commands the sky.
      My theory is that venin are having difficulties “feeding”. The Barrens are gone and once something is drained it’s gone. But commanding the sky to surrender all its power? Maybe that is unlimited feeding for them. Maybe they wouldn’t need magical grounds anymore. It’s a very raw theory right now as you can tell.

      Reply
  2. Diana Avatar
    Diana

    —Andarna’s journey is about a hatchling that’s growing unexpectedly after using her gift four times, and what happened in Resson. She’s different—another breed; she’s not like other dragons.
    —Dragons don’t seem to mess with humans younger than 20 years old.
    —I can strongly imagine Sgaeyl gossiping with Tairn about Violet and Xaden before Treshing, sending the memories.
    —If Tairn didn’t choose her before Treshing, maybe they just acknowledge her as an option, but he was in depression and PTSD after losing Naolin. He could have just appeared and reacted after Sgaeyl told him about Andarna and Violet being under attack. But surely he was watching her before Treshing.

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      I do think he was watching before Treshing. What I’m trying to say is that I do hope he picked her while in college and NOT before. Does that make sense? Not like Andarna. I love the thought that Andarna hatched specifically for her. But for some reason I prefer the idea that she entered the riders quadrant and seeing her there, made Tairn snap out of it, and want to fight. IT just gives me good goosebumps.

      Reply
  3. Emma Avatar
    Emma

    Hi Cory – I know, it is a bit confusing. Are they all just related and we always see Violet’s family from her reactions, which can sometimes be distorted by her point of view or mood at the time or is there something off as you mentioned.

    “Spoken like the daughter of a scribe”
    “I am the daughter of a scribe.”
    “You’re the daughter of a rider”
    I will not watch one of my children enter the Scribe Quadrant, Violet.”
    “Because scribes are so far beneath riders?”
    “Yes!”

    – I am wondering about this part. I have only read IF once so it is my first impression. I think you might be right with the Markham comment. I don’t think this is directed to Violet’s scribe father as such or (for me) assuming that they have different fathers, but more to corrupt scribes in general who have been covering up their history. Here you have a husband and wife, one a scribe and the other a rider and then they both discover the truth (here I am assuming that is a lot of the truth, if not all). They might have tried to deal with it in different ways. Lilith through the riders quadrant (possibly that Lilith knew that Brennan and Mira could handle that quadrant so put all her attention on them), and Mr. Sorrengail somehow through the scribe quadrant, trying to raise Violet (who he might have thought was more suited there) to discover the truth and fight against it from within that quadrant – this might have been a plan between the two of them, who knows – to fight on both fronts – or maybe they fought against the best way – with Mr. Sorrengail’s comment “You’re not like them, Violet. That’s not your path.” […]“And it’s for the best. Your mother has never understood that while riders may be the weapons of our kingdom, it’s the scribes who have all the real power in this world.”.

    And then Brennan is “killed” and possibly Mr. Sorrengail redoubled his efforts to expose the truth maybe through guilt as he believed that Brennan was killed fighting on a corrupt side and knew and then he died of a “heart attack” (I am actually now believing that he was killed by the Scribes quadrant to keep quiet as others have said, possibly through poison). Lilith might have known when her husband died that is was murder, and now knew that if Violet entered the scribe quadrant that her life would just be in just as much danger as the Riders quadrant (as confirmed in IF) and she would not be able to protect Violet there in anyway. She has just lost her husband, possibly believing that he was killed and now didn’t want any of her children in what she now saw as a completely corrupt quadrant – hence the comment that she would not watch one of her children enter the scribe quadrant, even though the love of her life was a scribe.

    Also:

    Mom tolerates me and respects Mira, but she loved Brennan.

    – Maybe this could be related to above. All throughout her childhood, Lilith was directing her older siblings to her field of expertise (Riders Quadrant), maybe putting most of her love and attention into them and left Violet to her husband, because she might have accepted his plan and Violet maybe saw it as a tolerance.

    It could be a way of looking at it, but might just be random thoughts.

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      Hi Emma,
      I am honestly so certain he was murdered. And I think Lilith knows. Because she made that comment: “Markham would start bringing you into the fold, as we do with most at those ranks, and then you would unravel everything in the name of mercy or whatever emotion you’d blame, and they would kill you for it.”
      I still feel like we are missing something. I don’t know, there’s a missing puzzle. As Diana said in one of the comments today, maybe it’s just strange family dynamics that they all needed to look after Violet. And Violet felt like she can never quite lived up to them all because they were all so strong around her. Maybe they are all related and I’m missing the point. Ultimately, Brennan looks like dad, Mira looks like mom. But what about Violet?
      Why did Lilith say “I may be a stranger to you…” WHY???

      Reply
  4. Emma Avatar
    Emma

    “Your father made sure you’d know everything you needed or where to find it. You’re all that’s left of him, you know.”
    But I’m not. Mira has his laugh, his warmth, and Brennan…

    I just had a thought on this part. For this I am assuming that they are all related. Violet was thinking more physical attributes or general characteristics, but maybe Lilith was thinking more about her husband’s drive to look and discover the truth in things and not stop until she finds it. The scribes mind of looking at things. Maybe.

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      So are we thinking it was just a comment related to her mind. Because all her children are riders thru and thru but when it comes to Violet…she still has the mind of a scribe, basically all that’s left of him?
      It could be. In which case, I’m reading too much into the family dynamics.

      Reply
      1. Emma Avatar
        Emma

        For me, personally, I always thought it was about her mind. It is where she feels more comfortable – information keeping her calm in stressful situations or focusing on the archives in order to ground her in accessing Tairn’s power etc. But I have only read IF once and have read RW twice and on more than one occasion my theories are so completely wrong 🤣

        TBH – there is so much we don’t know about their family life and I guess that is Rebecca’s plan – like how we will learn more about the world Rebecca has created from Violet’s POV as she learns more and more and I think it will be the same about her family life. When secrets or information is revealed we will find them out then as well.

        At this point it could go any way. Can’t wait to find out 😀

        Reply
        1. Cory Avatar
          Cory

          I absolutely cannot wait to find out. I wish we had the whole series out 😀

          Reply
  5. Emma Avatar
    Emma

    “There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to keep you safe. Do you understand? Everything was to get you to this moment, when you’d be strong enough-“

    – I do kind of think there is a prophecy going on, but what it contains, I am really unsure?

    “He did, but it was after my mom had a really long night while we were stationed near the eastern border, and her eyes were bloodshot red, so I freaked out and started shrieking.”

    – I did have one last thought on the above. Did I read somewhere that someone asked Rebecca if anyone came back from being a venin and she might have said “no, but have they?” I might have dreamt that, but if it was true – I know there are thoughts that maybe Lilith’s husband became venin, but what if it was Lilith herself (maybe someone else had that thought too) – it might be that she was trying to discover a cure (from the correspondence with Markham) for herself and at the same time kept her condition hidden – maybe she did show it a bit on that night that Violet saw her with bloodshot eyes. Maybe she wasn’t attacked during her pregnancy and actually did have a sickness which threatened her and Violet’s lives, and she wanted so desperately to survive and drew power from the earth which unintentionally drained Violet and turned her (Lilith) venin. And maybe her and her husband found a cure, but didn’t let on because they knew of the corruption. This could be Xaden’s saving grace, that Violet’s mother has left clues somewhere on how to cure the condition.
    Just another random theory 😊

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      It was in the Vanity Fair interview. It was a great interview full of tips to be fair.
      The correspondence was with Nolon, I believe you are referring to the recovered missive from the end of the book? I do kinda think that maybe she managed to come back. That fever when she was pregnant? Maybe she was venin herself and well, that affected Violet. Maybe she was just tolerating Violet because she felt awful for what she did to her. I’m left with more questions than answers and I must say, it’s very frustrating right now.
      UGH!
      I do wonder if Markham is a bad venin and is trying to keep everything under wraps and the moment Dad Dorrengail somewhat found a cure (research to do with the second uprising and feathertails…) he started getting his daily dose of poison from Markham himself.

      Reply
      1. Emma Avatar
        Emma

        I did like Diana’s comment on another post – that at this point anyone could be venin. We just don’t know 😆

        I was also going to post (but left it out) that maybe if they had found a cure and had to keep it secret – could this mean that there had been some sort of cost to making it that would have possibly affect dragonkind in some way – that could have been exploited. But maybe it is someone like Markham (who has possibly become venin) and who is keeping it under wraps.

        I know – the more you read the book, the more questions you have. I think this is the first time since Harry Potter that I have experienced an incomplete series and gone through the motions as it goes. It is fun, but also drives me insane 😆

        Reply
        1. Cory Avatar
          Cory

          It’s so fun, and yes, it drives me insane too. That’s a very good theory, actually. That the cure could somehow affect the dragons or sever the bond? Or something like that.

          Reply
  6. Aubrey Avatar
    Aubrey

    What if Lilith Sorrengail was in love with a venin? It could explain why she’s immune or something to venin if she’s part venin already. Lilith clearly knew about venin and how to kill them aka the dagger on her desk in fourth wing and why she only tolerates Violet.

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      That’s the thing, isn’t it? Either she was venin, or she was in love with one! Right??

      Reply
  7. Melanie Avatar
    Melanie

    Okay I have a theory on this.

    I believe that somewhere between the birth of Mira and Lilith’s pregnancy with Violet, their father turned into a venin. I do not know how or why it happened, but it would explain the whole Violet being immune to venin theory. I think, as the scribe he was, he tried to find the cure, but failed – or at least was not able to finish his work. Eventually, Violets father being a venin would become so dangerous that Lilith had to kill the man she loves to protect her own children. It would also explain why she distanced herself so much after the death of her husband, feeling guilty of having to kill not only the love of her life, but also the father of her own children. We learned in IF that Lilith would do anything to protect her own children. To kill the love of your life must be the ultimate sacrifice, but also something her children would never understand. Distancing herself from her children was her way of dealing with that.

    I do not think Lilith cheated or that Mira has another father. Brennan and Violet just remind her more about their father which must be extremely hard for Lilith.

    I think Lilith knew that Violet must be to one to finish the job her father started. Violet having the power of a rider and the mind of a scribe – the best of her parents – she would be able to do so.

    In book 3, I think Brennan and Violet will work together to find the cure. I know this is kinda also another theory, but it would make sense if Violet’s other signet would have something to do with talking to the dead or just death in general. As we know, her mantra is “I will not die today”, Xaden also states that she will be the death of him – and of course her conversation with Liam in IF. Given how many times she has cheated death in FW – with or without the help of Andarna, there is definitely something about it. You could even say her whole existence was cheating death. Lilith had an extreme feber when she was pregnant with her. She might as well could have been dead, but she survived. She keeps surviving.

    What I want to say with this is that I think this signet will give her the power to speak to her dead father – eventually leading her to them find the cure for venin. If RY chose to kill Xaden in the next book, because of the foreshadowing of Violet being the death of him, this signet could lead to her bringing him back to life as well.

    Reply
    1. Cory Avatar
      Cory

      So we’re thinking somewhere in the line of bringing the dead back?
      I do wonder if we will be able to see her talk to her dad, or at the very least I think we will learn a lot about the family through books and journals.

      I wonder if we won’t cure Xaden, but we will just have to deal with him as is. So basically, he is venin, she is not. He needs to learn control and that’s it.
      Are you thinking that Brennan is a good guy? Something tells me he might not be.

      Reply

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Hello! This site is dedicated to the Empyrean Series by Rebecca Yarros. I’ve made this place to explore the rich world of Empyrean, full of characters, theories, and places. Each post is carefully researched and updated with the newest details from the series. This site is also a great spot for discussing theories about the Empyrean Series. 🐉
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